I have a very long question for Muslims...?
The Jews had been living in Arabia (Hejaz and Yemen) since the Babylonian Captivity in 597 BCE when Muhammad was born in 570 CE. Through enslavement, exile, and war, the majority of them vanished. Muhammad envisioned a one hundred percent Muslim Arabia. According to the Sunnah: It has been narrated by 'Umar ibn al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: “I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims.� (Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4366) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html) Yahya related to me from Malik from Ismail ibn Abi Hakim that he heard Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz say, "One of the last things that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said was, 'May Allah fight the Jews and the Christians. They took the graves of their Prophets as places of prostration. Two deens (religions) shall not co-exist in the land of the Arabs.' " (Malik's Muwatta, Book 45, Number 45.5.17) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muwatta/045.mmt.html) I also quote from the Official Saudi Fatwa at (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP112306): The 'ulama agreed that building heretical houses of worship, such as churches, in the Arabian Peninsula is the most weighty of sins and the worst of crimes, because there are reliable and explicit sayings of the Prophet [hadith] that prohibit the existence of two religions in the Arabian peninsula [i.e. another religion in addition to Islam], among them the Prophet's words that were related by [Imam] Malik and others and were recorded in the Sahihayn [the two most authoritative collections of hadith for Sunni Muslims compiled by Al-Bukhari and by Muslim]: 'There shall not be two religions together in the Arabian Peninsula.' According to this Fatwa, the first hadith also appears in Sahih Bukhari. This makes it authentic without a doubt. Muhammad died in 632 CE, 1,375 years ago. As of 2001 there were 36 Jews in Bahrain and 200 in Yemen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands#History_of_Jews_in_Arab_lands_.28Pre-1948.29) or a total of 236 Arabian Jews. Adolf Hitler envisioned a Jew free Germany and succeeded in killing six million Jews. He died in 1945, 62 years ago. Today there are 200,000 Jews/Jewish descendants in Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Germany). So clearly Muhammad’s war with the Jews was much more successful than Hitler's. My question is, did Muhammad succeed where Hitler failed? (I didn't copy-paste. Apart from the fatwa and hadith, this is all my own writing.) Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------- Adia Arek, I know a lot of hadith have been corrupted, but with all due respect, certainly not this one. Don't you think it's pretty firmly grounded? Temsah, believe it or not, I'm not Israeli or Jewish. I'm a one hundred percent Arab Egyptian ex-Muslim. Ana mish Israeli wala Yahudi. Ana Arabi wi Masri wi mortad. :-) Read the question again. It's not about Jews in the Middle East. It's about Jews in the Arabian Peninsula. Gaeligekinney I assume the first part of your answer was a reply to Ex Muslim's answer and not my question. There are three problems with your argument about the hadith. (1) A lot of hadith aren't authentic. The ones I gave are. Read them again. (2) 'Qur'an-only' Islam doesn't work. The Sunnah (a) gives us vital details the Qur'an doesn't, like exactly how to pray, (b) is used to interpret the Qur'an, and (c) tells us about the lives of Muhammad and his family and friends. (3) If the Sunnah has been corrupted so much that even a hadith like this is unauthentic, who's to say the same thing hasn't happened to the Qur'an? Rory I I educate myself pretty well. This question is well-researched and well-written. But saying 'go to hell' and 'your mommy must be proud of you' tells me you need to educate yourself more than I do. Adia Arek I have to go to a tutorial now. I'll be back in about an hour and a half and I'll answer your second argument then. I'm back...So according to you, Adia Arek, if a hadith contradicts the Qur'an, it's unauthentic; Since this hadith seems to contradict the Qur'an, it's unauthentic. I will prove that the hadith (a) is authentic and (b) does not contradict the Qur’an. Since when is the authenticity of a hadith measured by its absolute harmony with the Qur'an? In the science of hadith, the authenticity of a hadith is measured by its ‘isnad,’ or its chain of transmission (Muhammad said W to Companion X, and Companion X repeated W to Person Y, and Person Y repeated W to Person Z, and so on). In judging the isnad, two judgments are made: (1) that the isnad is possible (as in all people were alive at the time and were living in the same area at the time) and (2) that all the speakers were dependable (honest and intelligent). A hadith may be judged as genuine (sahih), fair (hasan), or weak (da’if). This hadith is judged as sahih. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_of_hadith If a hadith clearly says the Earth is flat while the Qur'an clearly says the Earth is round, that hadith obviously contradicts it and is unauthentic, but whether this hadith contradicts the Qur'an isn't so clear. Surely it contradicts Verse 60.8, which says Muslims must be equitable to inoffensive non-Muslims, but does it contradict a later Surah, Surah 9 (At-Tawbah), which seems to harmonize with it perfectly? I found a good study of Surah 9 from Islam Online at http://www.islamonline.net/surah/english/viewSurah.asp?hSurahID=52 I quote from the study: “If we keep in view the preceding background, we can easily find out the problems that were confronting the Community at that time. They were: 1. to make the whole of Arabia a perfect Dar-ul-Islam, 2. to extend the influence of Islam to the adjoining countries, 3. to crush the mischiefs of the hypocrites, and 4. to prepare the Muslims for Jihad against the non- Muslim world.� “Now that the administration of the whole of Arabia had come in the hands of the Believers, and all the opposing powers had become helpless, it was necessary to make a clear declaration of that policy which was to be adopted to make her a perfect Dar-ul-Islam.� “A clear declaration was made that all the treaties with the mushriks were abolished and the Muslims would be released from the treaty obligations with them after a respite of four months.(vv. 1-3). This declaration was necessary for uprooting completely the system of life based on shirk and to make Arabia exclusively the center of Islam so that it should not in any way interfere with the spirit of Islam nor become an internal danger for it.� This proves that, in the context of Surah 9, which was among the last Surahs of the Qur’an, Arabia was to be made one hundred percent Muslim, which is perfectly in line with the hadith. So it doesn't really contradict the Qur'an, it contradicts a verse you chose from the Qur'an, doesn't it? Also, Adia Arek, you seem to have a bit of a double standard about hadith. As you know, there are several hadith that say Muslim apostates are to be killed, which supposedly contradicts the verse in Surah 2 that says there is no compulsion in religion. According to you, since they contradict the Qur'an, they are unauthentic. But instead of calling them unauthentic, you explain that, at the time, they were used to kill apostates who posed as Muslims to hurt them. You also quoted a hadith from Bukhari at http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AiFTNcFXrNBXaim0RxEOWQ8AAAAA?qid=20070310020932AAtvbnm&show=7#profile-info-AA10694540 and yet when I quote a hadith from the same book you attack its authenticity. The first you gave says Bukhari accepted 7,275 hadith and threw out 592,725, or about 99%. Aren't the 1% remaining, which include the apostasy hadith, authentic? The same link says 'Malik Ibn Anas collected about 500 hadiths in his famous book, "Al-Muwattaa."' Didn't I give a hadith from Al-Muwattaa? Looong story short...These hadith are authentic. :-) ------------------------------------------------------- Now, Capn Edib...First, these 'unworthy hadith' are definitely authentic. Enough said. Let's discuss your quotes. "He himself [the prophet] gave letters of security and protection to the Jews and Christians in Arabia and never used any violence to them upon the account of religion." With all due respect to Mr. Stubbe, this quote is inaccurate. Accusing each Jewish tribe of treachery, practically one by one, Muhammad expelled the Banu Nadir and Banu Qainuqa from Medina, and had the Banu Qurayza enslaved and executed. Why do you think the Hejaz Jews were never heard from again after Muhammad's death? "...And Islam was tolerant not simply to the Jews but also to the Christians. The Christian church in Muslim Spain was given large lands and considerable revenues, Christian envoys were recieved with courtesy and allowed to take away relics of Christian saints and martyrs from the Muslim territory. Gibbon says in his Decline and Fall [of Roman Empire], that Muslim rulers even transcribed an Arabic version of the canons of the councils of Spain for the use of Bishops in the Moorish kingdom. Haroon al-Rashid, the hero of the "Arabian Nights," planted in his kingdom a large number of schools, and the head of these schools, his Director of Education, was a Christian named John." We're talking about how Muhammad treated the Arabian Jews. What exactly does that have to do with how Muslims treated Christian Spaniards? "...When Jerusalem capitulated to Khalif Omer, the inhabitants of the vanquished city were left in possession of their worldly goods, and allowed the freedom of worship. A special quarter of the city was allotted for the residence of Christian population with their Patriarch and his clergy." Irrelevant, but debatable too...Read the Pact of Umar at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_Umar There are two texts regarding the treatment of Christians in Jerusalem and that article gives them both. The first is more discriminating than the second. However, since Dhimmis in general lived as second-class citizens in lands conquered by Muslims, I find the first one easier to believe. "…After the consolidation of the Saracen conquest, the toleration of Islam as extended over to the Catholic Church. Many Christian historians themselves bear testimony to this effect. The Ecclesiastical historian Renqudot, e.g., informs that “the rank, the immunities, and the domestic jurisdiction of Patriarchs, Bishops and the clergy were protected by [Muslim] civil magistrates [of Egypt]." (Re: How Muslims treated Christian Egyptians) "…A bloody sacrifice was offered by mistaken votaries to the God the Christian resistance might provoke, but neither sage nor sex could mollify their implacable rage. They indulged themselves in three days in a promisenous massacre. After 70,000 Muslims had been put to the sword and the harmless Jews had been burned in their Synagogue, they could still reserve a multitude of captives whom interest or lassitude persuaded them to spare." (Re: How Crusaders treated Jews and Muslims in the Holy Land) So it's hard to substantiate the genocide of the Arabian Jews because the Crusaders were brutal? How does that work? "....A 'Khalif' of Baghdad declared that the Christians were most worthy of trust in the administration of Persia. The Paulicians, those valiant fore-runners of the Protestant Reformation not only received freedom of worship in the Saracen Empire, but were actually supported by the Khalifs in their prolonged effort to subvert the degenerated Catholic Church, and reestablish Christianity in its original form.� (Re: How Muslims treated Christians in Baghdad and Persia) The 'freedom of worship' available to dhimmis was different from 'freedom of worship' as we know it today. Outside Arabia, dhimmis were tolerated, but discriminated against in many ways. Check http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/xstnc-5.html and http://www.dhimmi.com "The Qur'an calls them "People of the Book", i.e. those who received Divine scriptures before Muhammad (PBUH). Muslims are told to treat them with respect and justice and not TO fight them UNLESS THEY INITIATE HOSTILITIES or ridicule their faith. The Muslims ultimate hope is that they all will join them in worshipping one God and submit to His will." The Qur'an also calls Christians who believe in the sonship of Jesus or the Trinity unbelievers and invokes the curse of Allah upon them, calls Jews apes and pigs and enemies of Islam, and threatens them both with hell. Surah 9, discussed above, tells Muslims to fight the People of the Book till they pay the jizya and feel themselves subdued. Which is which? "Say (O Muhammad): O People of the Book (Jews and Christians), come to an agreement between us and you, that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall take no partners with Him, and none of us shall take others for Lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are those who have surrendered (unto Him)." I think we've reached a conclusion here Capn Edib. Some verses in the Qur'an are bad and some verses in the Qur'an are good. Be honest and give a balanced account.
Religion & Spirituality - 3 Answers
Random Answers, Critics, Comments, Opinions :
1 :
A lot of hadith had been corrupted. Here's my long written proof and evidence: http://www.geocities.com/athens/4796/hadith-corruption.html Thank you. Edit: Thank you for replying politely. The Qu'ran teaches us to be tolerant to others, for Allah loves fairness: [60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable. I don't care if the hadith is from Bukhari or Muslim, if it's contradictory with the Qu'ran, then it's not authentic. Which would you believe, the word from God Himself or the world from a mere man?
2 :
why don't you just admit that you are a Jew yourself you are not an Ex-Muslim as you claim as for your question it is just too much to read does the establishment of the state of Israel where you are from had to do with the diminishing number of the Jews in the middle east? Duh eidt your question is very long and in the end it proves nothing as usual. The hadith that you quoted is the one quoted by Usama Bin Laden to expel the Americans from Saudi Arabia. Now Hitler did the elimination of Jews by killing them right? now do you have a proof that any one was killed in the area that is called Saudi Arabia today I doubt because if you had it you would have posted it with this "well researched question of your" another point with the well researched question of yours is how many Jews did Hitler had at the start and how many did Muhammed PUH had? I mean the 200,000 and the 200+ can't be compared if as you claim the 200,000 were 6,200,000 and the 200+ where 250+ right? Now, in Egypt where I live, there were Jews who immigrated to Israel, where you live, so if we apply that theory of yours we will arrive at the conclusion that Egyptian consider themselves part of the Arabian peninsula.!! it would make a very good theory does not it. now there was no mass displacement of the Jews, nor there were forced conversion. The reason I am saying that is I did not hear of it (a) and you did not post anything claiming this (b). Before oil Saudi Arabia was a poor country their main revenue cam from serving the pilgrims to Mecca and Medinah where no Jews, like yourself, are allowed. Of course since you are sitting there in Israel you don't know that they had famines and draughts in the desert that has forced a lot of them to move out. In Egypt, where I am at right now and where you claim to be, there were tribes that moved out of Saudi Arabia during the famine and when they proved that they were originally from Saudi Arabia they got Saudi citizenship and moved back to there. Your question is really very very long on words and extremely short on material or a point to that matter. In the future when you want to post a "well researched question" may I suggest to do 1- good research 2- support what you are saying with FACTS if you know what does that mean in case you will not do the above, may I suggest that you settle with short answers that are not related to the question and don't e-mail people challenging them to answer your silly perverted question. I gave you a short answer and was minding my own business but you insisted that I take your challenge and I am sorry to tell you there is no challenge here for me. Israel is an hour ahead of Egypt in time right? Or is it the same time zone? Have a good night sleep my little Zionist and good dreams. Eidt again you are a joke as well as your questions. what is that at the end of this page a second account for you on Yahoo that you use when you run out of question space!!! At least keep a small space in the original question to ask people to read the rest of the question under the name “_____� and you supply the name, do you think that people like me will think that your questions deserve the attention to read ALL the answers, WAKE UP, I was just checking by pure chance to see why you did not reply to be shocked to see the continuation at the end with a different screen name and even without acknowledging that this is the asker. Haven’t you seen it here much too often that people volunteer with questions in other people questions? they were thinking of calling this Yahoo opinion but you are forcing them to call it Yahoo speech. No I did not deny the Authenticity of the Hadith I denied that after the Prophet PUH no Jew was killed or forced to displace and you did not show a proof of that. I find it really funny that you accuse people of not reading things that are in your mind and not in the text. now for the bano Quraizah story you are quoting no one did deny it. I did not deny it did I? I know there were 3 tribes in Almadinah why were the Quraizah the only one killed and the other two expelled, I mean if you want to kill the Jews as you are saying it would have been kill All. you know why they were killed right? They were killed because they broke their truth with the Prophet Muhammed PUH and they were about to cause the killing of ALL THE MUSLIMS in Almadinah can you deny this fact too? I am sure you can deny it. Added to the 3 tribes in Almadianah there was the ones in Khaiber, why were they just expelled shouldn’t they be killed too. if you had evidence in a well researched question you should have posted it for us to see don't you think that an evidence speaks better than you do?. I think it should. Now tell me one thing please, they are not Arabs and in your answer you calim that Arabs are the one in the Arabian peninsula, what were they doing there? Do you know the answer, I can supply you with it. They were there because they new from their holly books that the last messenger of God is coming out of this area and this is why they were there hoping that he will be one out of them. I read your long question more than once and I can't find evidence so show it to me quote from YOUR ORIGINAL QUESTION the proof that I missed. Sorry you can't because it is not there. If I don't know that you are a Zionist, I would have thought you are having troubles with your father and trying to vent it here, but I know you are a Zionist so 1- stop claiming that you are an Ex-Muslim 2- go to the single and dating section your questions there are more interesting and fruitful than your "Islam" questions Edit final I will not look at this page again so here is what I have to say. you want the last laugh you can have it. I thought this was for discussion and uncovering the truth but all what you are looking for is the laugh so PLEASE have it. Don’t get the wrong impression that I read your last modification because I did not. I decided that there is no point reading anything you write since 1- the matter for you is a laugh 2- you did not quote from your original question the reference that you posted. I missed where did I go wrong on spelling maybe you should have corrected me. But as usual you did not. As your questions accusations with out proofs in a “well researched question� and by the way I use Microsoft word to write my reply and it has what they call a “spell check on the fly� if you know what does that mean. the account that you are adding answers from was created BEFORE the question was posted. Now, I doubt that you educated any body about any thing. not Muslims not non Muslims or any body else so be my guest and PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE post the question again this way we can keep track of your account and know your new identity so we will know that this is the Zionist who is claiming to be an Ex-Muslim. Now don’t act as a child and e-mail me your reply because I will erase it without reading it.
3 :
Islam is not dying. It's the fastest growing religion in the world. But the hard-core radical Islam cannot sustin the test of time. Islam is going through a period of reformation right now. Much like the Protestant Reformation and it's effect on the Christian church, Islam is going through a period of change that will ultmiately change the face of Islam in the world. Hopefully the fundamentalist version of Islam will die out soon, but Islam isn't going anywhere. (Notice you are not quoting the Koran, just a hadith. And as a hadith, there's always doubts as to its authenticity. The Koran is different. I put no trust in this hadith, as is the case with many Muslims.)
4 :
I have a long answer for you.......... Brother your contention that Mohammad and Islam envisioned Jews elimination like Hitler, from Arabian peninsula, is hard to sustantiate from the historical accounts. Like always you have pin pointed some unworthy hadiths out of context. But history says otherwise. " He himself [the prophet] gave letters of security and protection to the JEWS and Christians in Arabia and never used any violence to them upon the account of religion."--[ An Account of The Rise And Progress of Mahometanism with the life of Mahomet- by HENRY STUBBE, M.A. of Christ Church- Oxford, From a manuscript copied by CharlesHornby of Pipe office in 1705, London,Luzac & Co. 1911, pg- 142-143] "....And Islam was tolerant not simply to the JEWS but also to the Christians. The Christian church in muslim Spain was given large lands and considerable revenues, christian envoys were recieved with courtesy and allowed to take away relics of christian saints and martyrs from the muslim territory. GIBBON says in his Decline and Fall [of Roman Empire], that muslim rulers even transcribed an Arabic version of the canons of the councils of Spain for the use of BISHOPS in the Moorish kingdom. Haroon al-Rashid, the hero of the "Arabian Nights", planted in his kingdom a large number of schools, the head of these schools, his Director of Education, was a chritian named John."--[ The Spirit and Struggle of Islam by Prof. T.L.Vaswani, Ganesh & Co., Madras-1921, pg-32] "....when Jerusalem capitulated to Khalif Omer, the inhabitants of the vanquished city were left in possesion of thier worldly goods, and allowed the freedom of worship. A special quarter of the city was allotted for the residence of Christian population with thier Patriarch and his clergy."-- [Rise and Fall of Roman Empire- GIBBON] ".......After the cosolidation of the Saracen conquest, the toleration of islam was extended over to the Catholic Church. Many Christians historians themselves bear testimony to this effect. The Ecclesiastical historian 'RENQUDOT'. e.g., informs that," the rank, the immunities, and the domestic jurisdiction of Patriarchs, Bishops and the clergy were protected by [muslims] civil magistrates [of Egypt]..."[The Historic Role of Islam, by M.N.Roy,pg-45,Vora & Co .8 Round Building, Bombay-2] "....A bloody sacrifies was offered by mistaken votaries to the God of the Christian resistance might provoke, but neither sage nor sex could mollify, thier implacable rage, they indulged themselves 3 days in a promisenous MASSACRE. After 70,000 MUSLIMS HAD BEEN PUT TO THE SWORD and the HARMLESS JEWS HAD BEEN BURNED in thier Synogogue, they could still reserve a multitude of captives whom interest or lassitude persauded them to spare."--[Rise and Fall of Roman Empire- GIBBON] "....A 'Khalif' of Baghdad declared that the Christians were most worthy of trust in the administration of Persia. The Paulicians, those valiant fore-runners of the Protestents Reformation not only recieved freedom of worship in the Saracen Empire, but were actually supported by the Khalifs in thier prolonged effort to subvert the degenerated Catholic Church, and reestablish Christianity in its original form."--[The Historic Role of Islam, by M.N.Roy,pg-46,Vora & Co.8 Round Building, Bombay-2] Now back to the Quran; The Quran calls them "People of the Book", i.e., those who received Divine scriptures before Muhammad (P). Muslims are told to treat them with respect and justice and do not fight with them UNLESS THEY INITIATE HOSTILITIES or ridicule their faith. The Muslims ultimate hope is that they all will join them in worshipping one God and submit to His will. "Say (O Muhammad): O people of the Book (Jews and Christians) come to an agreement between us and you, that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall take no partners with Him, and none of us shall take others for Lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are those who have surrendered (unto Him)." (Quran 3:64) EDIT: Thanx.buddy.........., It might, to you may look irrelevent, but if you have an interest in history, you might as well be knowing Henry Stubb, Gibbon etc who are known for their unbiased opinions. 1.The names which you have mentioned were under treaty for peace between Muslims & Jews.They not only broke the treaty but decepted the Muslims.Even then they were given a chance to leave Medinah or embrace Islam as they never remained trustwothy.[ Bani Quraiza & others recieved a message and appeared in agreement with Meccans Pagans to conspire & fight jointly against Muhammad ] That's why since treaty was beoken, they were punished as a matter of justice. 2.You will have to go to Israel to see the treatment which the Muslims get there like a 2nd class citizen, AS MATTER OF RULE OF LAW. Contrary to this milions of 'COPTIC JEWS' & christians are living freely in Arabian penninsula and get to the highest of political posts. e.g. Tariq Aziz of Iraq. 3.It was obvious that Jews were very much afraid of advancement of Islam, hence they did all sort of things to eliminate Islam. That's why they always broke almost all treaties with the Muslims and fought wars and got killed. Now which society will remain silent if a set of people conspire against their sovereignty ? Israel is still killing innocent people and not following any International law. Why ? Highest resolutions have been passed aginst Israel in UNO but who cares if the victims are Muslims ??? It is AMAZING that you do not talk about butchering of Muslims in SHATILA camp but infuenced by imaginary elimination of Arab Jews by Muslims.No where it is recorded in History. It is pathetic that you do not seem to oppose HITLER and crusaders who are responsible for killing million of Jews but imaginary elimination of Arab Jews by Muslims concern you very much. It is amazing that you never citicise Christians for their crusades against Jews and you treat them as your brother.HYPOCIRITES. Jews crucified Christ but Christians are still your brothers. Lastly if you have found some wrong verses in Quran, kindly feel free to qoute one. I am happy that you have come to a conclusion that at least some verses of Quran are GOOD. Kindly qoute the bad onse.. Thank you brother.. Assalmoalikum.
5 :
TEMSAH "your question is very long and in the end it proves nothing as usual." My question is long because I make use of a great deal of evidence, unlike you. I prove things because I use references. You prove nothing. You only give opinions. "The hadith that you quoted is the one quoted by Usama Bin Laden to expel the Americans from Saudi Arabia." It's also used by the Saudi Arabian Government. Did you read the fatwa? Did you even read the question? Or did you just read the title and start typing away? "Now Hitler did the elimination of Jews by killing them right? now do you have a proof that any one was killed in the area that is called Saudi Arabia today I doubt because if you had it you would have posted it with this "well researched question of your" Yes, I have strong proof that Jews were killed in the area called Saudi Arabia today. Do you want it? It's right here. Just don't complain about the answer being too long! "now there was no mass displacement of the Jews, nor there were forced conversion. The reason I am saying that is I did not hear of it (a) and you did not post anything claiming this (b)." (a) Since when does not hearing about something mean it never happened? (b) These are articles detailing the enslavement of all the women and children of the Banu Qurayza tribe and the killing of all the men over the age of puberty. They make a lot of use of Islamic literature. http://www.answering-islam.org/muhammad/... http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/... http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/pri... I could, of course, write about this myself the same way I did earlier, but you'd just ignore the hadith as 'unauthentic' even though Muslim theologians who know much more than you or me about these things have called them saheeh, or genuine. "Before oil Saudi Arabia was a poor country their main revenue cam from serving the pilgrims to Mecca and Medinah where no Jews, like yourself, are allowed." (a) I'm not a Jew. (b) You admit no Jews are allowed in Mecca and Medina. That's a start. "Of course since you are sitting there in Israel you don't know that they had famines and draughts in the desert that has forced a lot of them to move out." Of course I know. There was a lot of immigration from Saudi Arabia to areas conquered by Muslims, in North Africa and the Middle East. That's why these countries have Arab majorities today. The Arabs originally come from the Arabian Peninsula (Oman, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and the Gulf States). "In Egypt, where I am at right now and where you claim to be, there were tribes that moved out of Saudi Arabia during the famine and when they proved that the got Saudi citizenship and moved back to there." I'm Egyptian and in Egypt, unfortunately. But yeah, that's exactly what I said earlier. "Your question is really very very long on words and extremely short on material or a point to that matter." It's got a lot of material you didn't bother to read carefully. And like half of it is details in response to answers like yours. "Israel is an hour ahead of Egypt in time right? Or is it the same time zone? Have a good night sleep my little Zionist and good dreams." I'm not an Israeli. Capn Edib EDIT: Thanx.buddy.........., It might, to you may look irrelevent, but if you have an interest in history, you might as well be knowing Henry Stubb, Gibbon etc who are known for their unbiased opinions. 1.The names which you have mentioned were under treaty for peace between Muslims & Jews.They not only broke the treaty but decepted the Muslims.Even then they were given a chance to leave Medinah or embrace Islam as they never remained trustwothy.[ Bani Quraiza & others recieved a message and appeared in agreement with Meccans Pagans to conspire & fight jointly against Muhammad ] That's why since treaty was beoken, they were punished as a matter of justice. (1) Yes! All the evil Jewish tribes of Arabia conspired against Muhammad, and supported his enemies, and attacked him behind his back, and tried to assassinate him! Isn't that eternal anti-Semitic accusation the same thing Hitler said about the Jews? Second, even assuming Banu Qurayza did indeed betray Muhammad, what excuse was that to kill 700-900 men and enslave their women and children? In our day that would be called a war crime. Read the Geneva Convention. This, from Sayyid Al Khalq, the Seal of the Prophets, the most perfect human being in history... 2.You will have to go to Israel to see the treatment which the Muslims get there like a 2nd class citizen, AS MATTER OF RULE OF LAW. Contrary to this milions of 'COPTIC JEWS' & christians are living freely in Arabian penninsula and get to the highest of political posts. e.g. Tariq Aziz of Iraq. (2) Arab Muslims in Israel are treated like kings. They do not have compulsory military service unlike Israeli Jews who must serve for 2-3 years after high school, meaning they can go to college right after graduation while their fellow citizens die in the defense of their country. They are exempt from certain taxes. They are entitled to their own schools where there is special emphasis on Arabic and Islam. Arabic is an official language in Israel. You can't get into college without it. There are Arab MPs in the Knesset and loads of Arab parties. The greatest proof of their civil treatment is the huge number of Arabs in Israel - more than one million! If they're treated so roughly why don't they just pack their bags and leave? No, friend, they hate Israel but love what it gives them. http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/israeldiary/A_Muslim_in_a_Jewish_Land.asp However: Arab Muslims in Israel are the target of social prejudice and discrimination. This is wrong. This is a social issue, not a legal one. Legally, they have full rights. Second, anyone who says millions of Coptic Christians and Jews are living freely in the Arabian Peninsula is suffering from a brain lesion. First, there are zero Jews in Saudi Arabia. Till 2004, the government website said no Jews were allowed. Anyone with an Israeli stamp on their passport cannot enter. Second, about the Christians, Saudi Arabia has an abysmal religious rights record. Non-Muslims cannot be citizens of Saudi Arabia, hence the 100% Muslim statistic. Non-Muslim women must follow the Saudi dress code, wearing a black abaya. Non-Muslims pay taxes for being non-Muslim. Non-Muslims are forbidden to construct churches or synagogues or Sikh pagodas or whatever. They are forbidden to worship publicly. They may worship in the privacy of their homes but that is also difficult since non-Muslim holy texts, e.g. the Bible, are banned and confiscated on sight. Blood money for non-Muslims is less than for Muslims. If you kill a Christian accidentally, you pay hals as much as you would if you killed a Muslim. Christians are forbidden to preach their religion and they are punished if they do. Muslims who convert to Christianity are killed, imprisoned, or flogged as many as 300 times. http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2002/14012.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_Saudi_Arabia http://www.beliefnet.com/story/152/story_15272_1.html I see a great difference between how Muslims treat non-Muslims in their holy land, and how Jews treat non-Jews in theirs. 3.It was obvious that Jews were very much afraid of advancement of Islam, hence they did all sort of things to eliminate Islam. That's why they always broke almost all treaties with the Muslims and fought wars and got killed. Now which society will remain silent if a set of people conspire against their sovereignty ? (3) See (1) and Muhammad was frustrated with the Jews because they refused to convert to Islam and accused him of being a false prophet, which is hardly surprising because the Jews were members of the first monotheistic religion in the world and had been around for almost 2,000 years when Muhammad popped up. This made Muhammad hostile. Didn't you notice that all the anti-Semitic verses in the Koran appear when the Jews refused to convert to Islam? "Israel is still killing innocent people and not following any International law. Why ? Highest resolutions have been passed aginst Israel in UNO but who cares if the victims are Muslims ???" It is AMAZING that you do not talk about butchering of Muslims in SHATILA camp but infuenced by imaginary elimination of Arab Jews by Muslims.No where it is recorded in History." (a) Why do you keep changing the topic? Second time, first was the quotes. We are not discussing Israel. We are discussing the genocide of the Arabian Jews 1,400 years ago by the man you call Prophet. We are not discussing the Arab-Israeli conflict. We are not discussing Israel. We are not discussing the Palestinians. I know a lot about the Arab Israeli conflict and I can debate you on that too. But we're not discussing it. (b) The Sabra and Shatila massacres were carried out by Christian Falangists from Lebanon. The Israelis had no hand in it. There was a military tribunal that found General Ariel Sharon guilty of not stopping the massacre and he was dismissed from the military. Israel has encountered a lot of negative publicity because people expect it to behave in a civilized manner. The Palestinians immortalize suicide bombers and name schools and soccer championships after them and call them heroes and martyrs. BUT there is no excuse for what happened to the 900 Palestinian refugees. These massacres were absolutely shameful and I will be the first to admit that, unlike Muslims who have been living in denial about the massacre of 900 Banu Qurayza Jewish men for 1,400 years and trying to justify it in the context of the time. "It is pathetic that you do not seem to oppose HITLER and crusaders who are responsible for killing million of Jews but imaginary elimination of Arab Jews by Muslims concern you very much." Sure I oppose Hitler. Sure I oppose the Crusaders. Who said I don't? "It is amazing that you never citicise Christians for their crusades against Jews and you treat them as your brother.HYPOCIRITES." How long ago were the Crusades? 800 years. How long ago was the Inquisition? 500 years. Christians are no longer butchering and persecuting Jews. Christians are not blowing themselves up in restaurants and bakeries and buses and synagogues to kill Jews. Christians are not screaming for other Christians to kill Jews wherever they find them in churches, or calling Jews grandsons of apes and pigs. Christianity has been softened by centuries of secularism and modernization. I can't say the same thing about Islam. "Jews crucified Christ but Christians are still your brothers." I'm not Christian. "Lastly if you have found some wrong verses in Quran, kindly feel free to qoute one. I am happy that you have come to a conclusion that at least some verses of Quran are GOOD. Kindly qoute the bad onse.." Already quoted. Thank you too. Have a good day. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ TEMSAH AGAIN “Eidt again “you are a joke as well as your questions.� Learn to spell, prove me wrong, and you can call me and my questions jokes. “what is that at the end of this page a second account for you on Yahoo that you use when you run out of question space!!! At least keep a small space in the original question to ask people to read the rest of the question under the name “_____� and you supply the name, do you think that people like me will think that your questions deserve the attention to read ALL the answers, WAKE UP, I was just checking by pure chance to see why you did not reply to be shocked to see the continuation at the end with a different screen name and even without acknowledging that this is the asker. Haven’t you seen it here much too often that people volunteer with questions in other people questions?� I no longer have access to my first account. I closed it because I was getting too much junk mail. But since I couldn’t let you have the last laugh, I started a new account so we could have fun in the same place. :-) In a few days this question will expire and when that happens I’ll just ask it again so we could continue the debate. I have countered your ‘arguments’ many times and I will continue to do so till you realize you’re wrong. And my question certainly deserves a lot of attention. Only four Muslims had the ‘knowledge’ to answer it and two gave up even though I contacted them and asked them to answer my updates as I did with you. It’s just Capn Edib, you, and me now, and both of you are still coming back to answer my updates days after the question was asked. However, if you decide my question isn’t worth your time anymore and stop answering my updates, I’ll just put it up on my site and assume I proved you wrong. Any more questions? “they were thinking of calling this Yahoo opinion but you are forcing them to call it Yahoo speech.� “A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.� I don’t care what this site is called as long as it’s a place to debate. If you give me your address, we can debate by email. My address is truthinyouth@yahoo.com. However, we can do that once the question expires, because I want this to be public for a while. A Muslim who calls me a fake and a joke should certainly be able to defend these allegations and not be disproved, or he may end up looking like a joke himself. “No I did not deny the Authenticity of the Hadith I denied that after the Prophet PUH no Jew was killed or forced to displace and you did not show a proof of that. I find it really funny that you accuse people of not reading things that are in your mind and not in the text.� Hmm. There’s a contradiction here. ·You say you do not deny the authenticity of the hadith. That means it’s true. Read them again. ·It has been narrated by 'Umar ibn al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: “I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims.� Yahya related to me from Malik from Ismail ibn Abi Hakim that he heard Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz say, "One of the last things that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said was, 'May Allah fight the Jews and the Christians. They took the graves of their Prophets as places of prostration. Two deens (religions) shall not co-exist in the land of the Arabs.' " The first hadith supports the expulsion o the Christians and Jews from the Arabian Peninsula. The second hadith calls for Allah’s help in fighting the Christians and Jews and says there should only be one religion in Arabia (Islam). ·Third, despite the evidence from the hadith that it supports the expulsion of the Christians and Jews, you go on to deny that ANY Jew was killed or forced to leave. Not only is this a contradictory argument, but you are also wrong about another thing. There most certainly was expulsion and killing going on after Muhammad’s death, not just in Arabia, which thanks to Muhammad’s wars had almost been cleared of Jews, but also in Palestine. Read this debate among Muslim intellectuals at http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=89 in which it becomes evident that Omar forced the Jews out of Jerusalem. During the rule of Omar, Jews were also expelled from Khaibar, Fadak, Wadi al Qura, Taima, and other regions of Arabia. The Hejaz Jews disappeared. “now for the bano Quraizah story you are quoting no one did deny it. I did not deny it did I? I know there were 3 tribes in Almadinah why were the Quraizah the only one killed and the other two expelled, I mean if you want to kill the Jews as you are saying it would have been kill All. you know why they were killed right? They were killed because they broke their truth with the Prophet Muhammed PUH and they were about to cause the killing of ALL THE MUSLIMS in Almadinah can you deny this fact too? I am sure you can deny it. Added to the 3 tribes in Almadianah there was the ones in Khaiber, why were they just expelled shouldn’t they be killed too.� Banu Qurayza was the last Jewish tribe remaining in Medina. The others had been disposed of one way or another, all of them strangely accused of conspiring against Muhammad. I do not believe for one second that ALL the Hejaz Jews, all three tribes, deceived Muhammad and conspired against him out of the pure evil of their hearts. These are the same anti-Semitic accusations that have been made against Jews in every single conflict in their history. We only have Islamic historical records because most of the historical literature of the Jahiliya period was destroyed. However, let us assume you are correct. Let us assume Banu Qurayza was a tribe of evil conspirators who planned to destroy Muhammad and his men. Again, did this warrant the killing of ALL THEIR MEN? 700-900 men beheaded in the desert and thrown in a mass grave? Is this what the Seal of the Prophets does to his enemies? Also, what the hell did the women and children of the tribe do to deserve being enslaved? If you plan to come to my house and assassinate me, do I round up your entire family, kill all the males over the age of puberty, and enslave your wife and children?! What kind of mercy is that? What kind of peace is that, from a man who supposedly knew so much of both? Does the Geneva Convention allow this? Does the Universal Declaration of Human Rights allow this? The kaffirs of today have much more ‘mercy’ and ‘peace’ than Muhammad did in his own time. I was asked why I did not condemn the Sabra and Shatila massacre and I condemned it. But Muslims like you have been living in denial about the Banu Qurayza massacre for 1,428 years, refusing to call it what it was – a senseless, horrific bloodbath. “if you had evidence in a well researched question you should have posted it for us to see don't you think that an evidence speaks better than you do?. I think it should.� Go over the question and my answer again. I posted several sites relating to the treatment of the Arabian Jews. All this time you haven’t posted a single reference. “Now tell me one thing please, they are not Arabs and in your answer you calim that Arabs are the one in the Arabian peninsula, what were they doing there? Do you know the answer, I can supply you with it. They were there because they new from their holly books that the last messenger of God is coming out of this area and this is why they were there hoping that he will be one out of them.� So your argument is that Arabs were living in the Arabian Peninsula, and the Jews were living in Arabia because they knew the Messiah was coming from Arabia and they wanted him to be a Jew? That is simply ridiculous. First, if they knew a Messiah was coming out of Arabia, why did they not all convert to Islam? Why did they call Muhammad a liar, a poet, a magician, and other things the Koran says they called him? Why did they refuse to believe the differences between the Koran and their holy books (i.e. Ishmael or Isaac being the son Abraham was ordered to kill, etc.)? Second, the Jews had been in Arabia for a very, very long time, going back to the time of the First Temple which was more than 1,000 years before the appearance of Muhammad and even 600 years before the appearance of Jesus. The temple was destroyed in 586 BCE by the King of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, and the Jews were expelled from Jerusalem. As a result they lived in diaspora, immigrating to many areas, including Arabia. Also, the Jews were very successful in Arabia, especially the Hejaz Jews, who grew rich and powerful as merchants and traders. In short, (a) the Jews were not Arabs but they had the right to live in Arabia because they had been there for a millennium, and (b) the Jews were in Arabia for reasons of safety and economy, not waiting for a Messiah. Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Saudi_Arabia and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Temple "I read your long question more than once and I can't find evidence so show it to me quote from YOUR ORIGINAL QUESTION the proof that I missed. Sorry you can't because it is not there." There are two hadith. There is a fatwa. And there are like seven links in the question and the answer. What more evidence do you need? "If I don't know that you are a Zionist, I would have thought you are having troubles with your father and trying to vent it here, but I know you are a Zionist so 1- stop claiming that you are an Ex-Muslim 2- go to the single and dating section your questions there are more interesting and fruitful than your "Islam" questions" (1) Ana fi'lan mortad miya fil miya wi lau inta mish misada'ni di tib'a moshkiltak inta. (2) If I want to insult you, I CAN insult you, believe me. But I haven't insulted you once. I'm trying to remain as diplomatic as possible despite all your insults, which are the weapons of a child and not a 45-year-old man. Not insulting you is quite a struggle. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "I will not look at this page again so here is what I have to say. you want the last laugh you can have it. I thought this was for discussion and uncovering the truth but all what you are looking for is the laugh so PLEASE have it." 'He who laughs last laughs longest' is an expression in English and French. 'Having the last laugh' meant proving myself right in the debate by being the last to put up a convincing argument. I guess I will get to do that after all. "Don’t get the wrong impression that I read your last modification because I did not. I decided that there is no point reading anything you write since 1- the matter for you is a laugh 2- you did not quote from your original question the reference that you posted." (1) It's an expression and it's already been explained. (2) Did I need to quote? If you'd already read my question and my answer carefully as you claimed, you would've known what part of my question I was talking about. My answer is long enough as it is, and full of quotes and references. Adding quotes from my question would just make it longer, and you'd complain more. "I missed where did I go wrong on spelling maybe you should have corrected me. But as usual you did not. As your questions accusations with out proofs in a “well researched question� and by the way I use Microsoft word to write my reply and it has what they call a “spell check on the fly� if you know what does that mean." You called me a joke. And you didn't even spell the sentence right. That's what I call a joke. Next time you insult me, at least pay attention to your spelling and I'll take you more seriously. :-) It is a very well-researched question, yes, much better researched than your answer, sadly. I introduced a lot of sources and quoted from a lot of sites and you didn't do that even once. "the account that you are adding answers from was created BEFORE the question was posted." Yes, I had two accounts, traveler.wanderer@yahoo.com and truthinyouth@yahoo.com, but I was only using traveler.wanderer@yahoo.com on Yahoo! Answers. After I got so much junk mail in my traveler.wanderer@yahoo.com account and closed it, I used my truthinyouth@yahoo.com account to answer the question I had asked as traveler.wanderer@yahoo.com to get back to your updates. See how that works? "Now, I doubt that you educated any body about any thing. not Muslims not non Muslims or any body else so be my guest and PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE post the question again this way we can keep track of your account and know your new identity so we will know that this is the Zionist who is claiming to be an Ex-Muslim." In order for someone to be educated they must have an open mind. The Muslims who answered this question did not do so with open minds. You can scroll down and see that every one of the answers I got has been refuted with only responses from two people, you and Capn Edib. I don't debate to educate anyone. I debate to expose logical errors in the arguments of my opponents and make it clear that I have an informed, fact-based opinion worthy of serious consideration. You're like the third Egyptian to accuse me of being a Zionist, even though I've refuted all your points and talked to you in Egyptian colloquial Arabic. A 45-year-old man is no different from a 21-year-old man or a 23-year-old woman. It shows how all of you people think the same way. It's cute how you run away from the problem by pretending I don't exist. But see, the problem is that I do exist, and you can't think me away. "Now don’t act as a child and e-mail me your reply because I will erase it without reading it." It seems that a few things became obvious from this debate. One is that I know more about Islam than you do. Two is that I bother to do my research before I make accusations and claims. Three is that I control myself and I don't insult my opponents. Do you know how old I am? I'm 18. In your entire reply this time, you failed to introduce any real refutations, only criticizing me for irrelevant things like telling you to spell right or asking why I'm using a different account again. This question has been answered by people who talked a lot, but said little, and all the counter arguments have been refuted, so I stand by my opinion. Muhammad was the most brilliant genocidist who ever lived. He did indeed succeed where Hitler failed. If I was living in Germany in the 1920s, I would've given this advice to Hitler: "Read the Sira before you write Mein Kampf!"
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